Audio Recording Interview H0043: with Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal [tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal],, (India, 1991)

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Title
Interview H0043: with Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal [tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal],, (India, 1991)
Contributor Names
Paljor Tsarong (interviewer)
Goldstein, Melvyn (editor)
Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal [tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal] -- b. 1920 (interviewee)
Created / Published
Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio.
Notes
-  India (place of recording)
-  The interview was conducte6d and recorded in Tibetan and translated into English. (contents)
-  Interview in Tibetan.
-  This document is part of the Political History Collection of the Tibetan Oral History and Archive Project, edited by Melvyn Goldstein, and published by the Center for Research on Tibet, Department of Anthropology, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio.
-  male (gender)
Form
sound recording
Extent
7 text files
7 digital audio files
Part 1: 94 min 57 s
Part 2: 47 min 4 s
Part 3: 74 min 50 s
Part 4: 32 min 35 s
Part 5: 46 min 59 s
Part 6: 60 min 16 s
Part 7: 46 min 7 s
Language
Online Format
audio
online text
pdf
Description
Part 1: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 2: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 3: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 4: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 5: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 6: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. Part 7: Tsarong Rimshi, whose personal name was Dündül Namgyal, was a well-known Western educated Tibetan official from one of the richest and most important aristocratic families. He was the son of Tsarong Dzasa, the architect of the program of military and infrastructural modernization after the 13th Dalai Lama returned from exile in India in 1913. In this interview, he talks about how the Tibetan Government controlled Chamdo and Tashilhunpo in the past and how they were later included in the Tibet Autonomous Region. He also discusses the initial arrival of Zhang Jingwu in Kalimpong in 1951. And he talks the time when three Chushigandru members including Jamatsang came in 1958 to Kalimpong to ask for donations. He also recalled how Shakabpa, etc. told his father to stay in India and lead the movement of the Tibetan independence in 1958, but how his father told them that unless they had reliable foreign support, he would not lead them and then he returned to Tibet. He also discusses the withdraw of students from Darjeeling and the return to Tibet of the government officials who were India. He talks about the arrival of the American Correspondent A.T. Steele in Lhasa and how he worked as his guide. He also discusses how the soldiers of the Bodyguard Regiment changed their uniform from English to Chinese and how the military officers of the other regiments also changed their uniforms. He talks about the education system in the Tibetan schools and how the Chinese set up schools with a different system. Finally, he describes the rules in the old society where soccer and bicycles were not allowed, and how Shölkhang Jedrung was scolded by the Yigtsang for playing soccer and was punished by the Drönyerchemmo for taking photos when the Dalai Lama went to Drepung. sound recording | 7 text files | 7 digital audio files | Part 1: 94 min 57 s | Part 2: 47 min 4 s | Part 3: 74 min 50 s | Part 4: 32 min 35 s | Part 5: 46 min 59 s | Part 6: 60 min 16 s | Part 7: 46 min 7 s | India (Place Of Recording). The interview was conducte6d and recorded in Tibetan and translated into English. (Contents). Interview in Tibetan. This document is part of the Political History Collection of the Tibetan Oral History and Archive Project, edited by Melvyn Goldstein, and published by the Center for Research on Tibet, Department of Anthropology, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio. male (Gender). Sound Recording (Form). Yes, they were. We also did something like a government certificate of deposit or like a bond. Yes. Nobody I knew expressed their surprise to me internally. There were some from Yadong who had been to India and seen quite a bit and heard. But some of course were quite surprised. No. I was not interested. My thoughts were on leaving the country. Maybe. George Patterson book has everything. He stayed there. So it was like that. Yes, I know him. Yes, he was a tall person and stayed here. His brother Akula lives at Lhasa. He rented a house from our property at Jagoji [tib.?]. So Gyami Tsering sent a message asking us to come for dinner. Did Gyami Akula send the message or Gyami Tsering? Gyami Tsering sent a message saying please come for dinner. He said Phodrang Kungö [Bhutan House] is coming and that it's just us, nobody else. When we got there, along with Phodrang Kungö, a few moments later all the members of the Chinese representative group showed up. They must have been invited. So it was a surprise and they were trying to make contact. So we had to be cordial and talk. One couldn't show a stern face and start an argument right? So the Chinese representatives said please come for dinner and they did invite us once. Then they tried to make better relations. During that dinner [at Gyami Tsering's place] they said to come for dinner. So my father said that we cannot come since we are going to the flower show at Darjeeling and besides, we have to go for medical treatment. Their reply was, "Oh, we also happen to be going there! Lets go together!" My father didn't pay much attention, but said Yes, Yes. Later we did not go together. So in this way they were trying to make us "dirty." They were trying to make it difficult for us to stay here. The Indian government is watching and they are going to say, "What are these people up to?" So in this way they were making it difficult for everyone. They must have done the same to others. Then there was another occasion. I was in Calcutta just before the Uprising in 1959. One morning I was reading the newpapers at the Continental Hotel and the headlines read that there was fighting in Lhasa and artillery had been fired. Oh my, I thought. At that time I was about to go to Nepal since I had bought trucks [he was going to start a Nepal Transport Service]. I had already sent my bedding. However, I delegated my work to the Nepalese Gorashar Sota [tib. sgo ra shar zog bdag] [A Newari named Ratna] and I decided to go to Kalimpong to find out what the situation was. So I immediately bought my plane ticket and as soon as I got out of the plane at Bagdogra, the Chinese representatives were there in the same plane. The head of the Trade Mission was there and two interpreters and Wuzu was there too. So they warmly greeted me and I couldn't show a bad face in the airport lounge. So I said hello. They knew everything, but they were shaking my hands and saying "Oh, how are you and where are you going?" I said I was going up to Kalimpong. They said, "Oh, come with us we have a car!" So I said I can't go as I have some work and avoided them. So they were doing things like that. Then after that they did not contact me. Then I came up and a meeting took place. It was decided that we would all go to demonstrate in Delhi and that during this occasion, each one had to pay their own fare. I think some money was collected and all the tickets were bought at once. So we all went to Delhi. Where did the meeting take place. I think it took place in the Himalayan Hotel. Who were the main organizers. Shakabpa was the main person and there were others. Kungö Lukhangwa was there as well as Ganden Villa Khenjung. So you all went down to Delhi. Yes we all did. We all stayed at the Mariner Hotel. It was very hot at that time. Aunty Phünkhang Anila and late Yuthok Anila also came [interviewee's paternal aunt]. Everybody came. Maybe about 50-60 people. The members of the People's Association must have also come. Including the People's Association representatives there were about 60. There's a photo of it too. It's in the newspapers. I have the cutting here, right? With Lukhangwa and all. The main persons went to meet Pandit Nehru [Note: see Lhalungba interview H.0082.01] We did not go. Then we all went to the Gandhi Ghat [Memorial] and offered scarves. Under a tree, we had a meeting. At that time there was one Mrs. Bedhi. She spoke in English explaining what had taken place in Tibet. And from our Tibetan side a speech was given. That was it and then we all returned. What did they ask Nehru? That such a terrible thing had taken place over there [Tibet] and so assist us. There is nothing to say except that. That Tibet is completely independent and that we are also petitioning the UN. A letter was written. They also showed it to me. It said that we are independent and told the whole story. And so whatever it is, we are going to petition to the world body, please assist us in our endeavor. Also that the Dalai Lama has had great difficulty and so assist us in whatever way [we need]. So such things were [in the letter]. Now in Kalimpong, there were a lot of students. Since the (Tibetan) government had ongoing relations with the Chinese, did the government send orders for these students to return? Yes, they did. The Kashag most probably contacted the Trade Mission, since that was their representative. So towards the end of 1952 all the students were withdrawn. Did the government ask them to return. Yes, they did. Out of fear they had to. At that time who was attending school here? I don't remember the names. Was sister Namla [tib. rnam lha] there? No. I gave the names to somebody. Didn't I give them to you. Probably. If you did, I have it on file. There were 10 students. Kyibuk Thöndub la stayed back since the Sikkim King said that he should stay behind and complete his studies and that they were going to pay his expenses. And so it was made that he could complete his studies. You mean Kyibuk, right. Yes. And then from Delhi, we returned to Kalimpong. Then we were hearing that the Dalai Lama was arriving and so all were attentive and also read the papers. Then it was said that the Dalai Lama had arrived. It was said that he is traveling via Siliguri and so we all went to receive him. Everybody went to the Siliguri railway station and he arrived there. We were all dressed in our yellow dresses. The old government dress. Yes. We all went there with the People's Association and the trumpets and gyaling instruments were played and the monks lined up and everything. The Dalai Lama did not come out [of the train], but an audience was given. Then he was taken straight to Mussorie. So we returned and just stayed here, Kungö Shakabpa, since he was the main person, went to Mussorie. Then after a month or so there was a telegram from the Kashag asking me to come down. At that time, when they said come here and go there, one had to pay one's own expenses since the government had nothing. So I went down and Surkhang Kungö Depön and I were to translate the daily news. We couldn't translate the whole paper, right? So we translated items pertinent to the Tibet situation. Then it was said that we have to make a national anthem. They asked me if I could do it. I said I would do my best. There was a Gusung Regiment soldier who played in the band. He could sing it. So I said that he would have to sing it and somebody would note it down. Near Mussorie there was this place called Charville which today is an IAS school [Indian Administrative School]. At that time it was a hotel. I spoke with the manager asking about finding out about a bandmaster. I asked him if it was possible and that we will pay the fees. So the soldier sang the words while I wrote them down and the bandmaster wrote the score. Then he immediately played the song on the piano. Then he wrote the scores for the other instruments. Then he said to come in two days time and the band will play it. So they played it and it was more or less alright. Then it was said that this has to be improved in Delhi and so I went down to Delhi and asked them to improve on it. There was some urgency to the matter since the 1960 commemoration of March 10th was fast approaching. So with much urgency it was improved. Then on the commemoration day, I played the tape recorder. The government did not have a recorder and so I used mine. So in this way I stayed. You said that the Trapchi [sic. Gusung] soldier knew it and so did they play it in the old days. Yes. The Gusung Regiment played it. When was the national anthem played? This was sometime around 1947-48. Before that the Tibetans played "God Save the King." . Who composed it in 1947? I don't know. Somebody did and it is said that Trijang Rimpoche was also consulted. The flag was made during 13th Dalai Lama's time and the Dalai Lama's seal was on the composition itself. My father was told to hand it over to the Foreign Office and it was given to them. There was no photostat copies in those days and not even a photograph was taken, so I don't know if today they based it on that composition or not. Nobody knows for sure. There was also an excellent map of Tibet. If all the pieces were put together it must stretch from there to here. [5-6 feet]. They did not give it. My late father had it and he also presented that. I ended up with a lot of work. All the English words were translated into Tibetan. I wrote the whole thing and it took about two months. Where did you say it was presented? At Lhasa to the Foreign Office. That was in 1946-47. So to continue, then all of a sudden one day I was given the work associated with the gold [in Sikkim], and I was sent to Calcutta. So I was stuck in Calcutta. While in Calcutta, there was Samding Dorje Phamo, her mother and entourage. People said that they all returned to Tibet. Later it was said that Kungö Pandatsang helped them and send them back. Everyone was surprised and was wondering about it. At that time you were at Calcutta. Yes. Your uncle Ragashag was trying to get off opium and was seeking assistance. So we helped him and so he used to come to Calcutta quite often. One day uncle Ragashag said that Sambo Jigme said that he wanted to return [to Tibet]. So I said how is he going to do that. He said that Samding Dorje Phamo has returned and Pandatsang told Sambo to return since his father and everyone was in Tibet and there was no use for him to stay here [in India]. Pandatsang told him that he will show him how to return. . So uncle Ragashag said that. He said that he [Sambo] already has his permit ready. I asked how? He said that Pandatsang took him [Sambo] in a taxi and showed him where the Chinese were located near Park Street. He told him that he himself cannot come, but showed him the house where the Chinese were and that if he went in there they will give him a passport. So he went in there and got his passport and even had a ticket on B.O.A.C. [British Airways]. It was all done. Ragashag said he was going to leave in 2-3 days time. Now what to do? I said. Oh my, I don't think he should go. He will have a lot of difficulties. He has escaped and now he should not at all return. So the two of them must have spoken and maybe at that time Kungö Gyalola was there and he may have spoken with your uncle. So it was said that it was better to try to stop him. Now they were thinking from the political side [maybe not since uncle's wife was the sister of Sambo]. I was just thinking of helping him. So his ticket was returned and as far as the passport, I said that it can just be left to expire or one could even throw it away. So I found out where the BOAC office was located. It was in the Grand Hotel. So I went there and cancelled the ticket and that was it. So he stayed behind. Such things transpired and it's the real fact. It's possible Pandatsang was acting in good faith saying that his parents are all in Tibet and so he should return. Pandatsang's daughter was Sambo Lhajam. If he had gone then he was sure to be imprisoned for many years [like his brother and everyone] and he would have suffered during the Cultural Revolution and probably even gotten killed. Now in 1952, Taring George la, Sumdo and you all came down [to Kalimpong] right? Yes, in the 9th-10th month [Tib-month]. Then where did you go? I came here [Kalimpong] in October and went to Calcutta to take delivery of goods. Then we collected them from Siliguri and sent them via SSTS [Sikkim State Transport Service] by truck. We send the goods to Gangtok and Kalimpong. We send the large items that humans carry to Gangtok. At Kalimpong we had to repack them into smaller boxes made by carpenters and then send them up [from the Kalimpong side]. At Sikkim, there was a storage place at the palace, which we borrowed and that's where we kept our things. Then we gradually sent things up. During this time the mule pack animals were more abundant from Kalimpong. The route via Natöla is much more dangerous and it was more difficult to find mules. Especially at that time since my father was competing for mules with the Chinese who were paying a lot of money to transport rice because of the food scarcity in Tibet. Then when the rains came and everything came to a stand still. So in the summer of 1953 we returned [to Lhasa] and then came down in the winter of 1953. So during 1952-53 you were sending things and going back and forth. During this time what was the political situation like. Everybody sort of thought, well it may just be okay and so all returned in 1952 and So everybody was just staying like that, though everyone was unhappy. From the government side were they trying their best to work things out? They were doing their best and they just stayed like that and sort of neglected things. On the other hand, the Chinese were getting everything lined up. They were starting the Youth League, the Women's League, the schools, and all the offices, building houses, trading. They gave money to Tibetan traders and ordered goods. Tibetans brought construction sheets, galvanized sheets, steel, cement. This [India] was the only place to bring goods. And there was money to be made in transporting goods. And so everyone was sort of preoccupied with economics. And road construction too. Yes. And in terms of trade was it a time when there was a lot of money to be made. Yes, a lot. And people had money and they had dayan silver coins and they did their best. The Chinese, it seemed, were paying for road construction according to some square meter [completed rather than day wage]. And so Tibetans used to work overtime. It is said that even when they were told not to do [more work], they would do it. Like piece meal. And they [the Chinese] were giving a lot of dayan very liberally. Should one say they looted it? At Xining, Ma Bufang had a hell of a lot of dayan and so they got all of that. Then they got them from numerous sources. So they used to send up boxes of dayan and distributed it. It is said that the Chinese used to say, "Give it to them. They can't eat it all up and it will be left over. Later we can just gather it up". It is said that when the Chinese first came they used to sweet talk us a lot. Anyway, in the end, one day one has to tread the path of socialism because there is a socialist system. So during 1952-53 what were they doing? Did they come to people's homes. What were they saying about socialism. Were they saying that it is good, etc? Yes, they were. At the Youth League meetings they would say it as "propaganda" [tib. dril bsgrags]. Likewise at the Women's meeting and at any meetings. And during ceremonies they would say that Tibet has to be made proper and develop, and so and so. In 1954-55 they were saying that they were going to start a school for government officials. For government officials? Yes, for the officials. It was called the cadre's school [tib. las byed slob grwa]. They said that it was going to begin in Drungji Lingka. They said that they were making a lot of beds and that's where the Kudrak were going to sleep. So there was such talk. Then people used to go around saying that you don't need a home. Not at the meetings. but indirectly like disseminating info [tib. gtam dbyugs]. What were they saying about homes? They were saying that keeping a home is a poison den [tib. dug rtswa] and its better without it. For example, they said that one doesn't have to worry about children. The state will look after them. Now you all can stay where you work [at your office] and women, whether you work in the Women's League or a hospital you can stay right there. Then during the weekend you can meet and go about and as far as children are concerned, there is no need to go through so much trouble. And keeping a big house like that is a lot of trouble for you. So what's the use. So they were saying things like that. They were saying things like that? Yes, they were. Not only that, they must have said that to others and they said it to us too. They said you have so many unnecessary things in your house so sell these to us and we will buy them. Who said that? Was it the Chinese? Did they come to our house. Yes and we used to go to the Trade Office [tib. tshong don las khungs]. Where is that house? In the old Pandatsang House at Lhasa. It was called the Procurement Office. There was this man called Liu Buzhang. He would invite us for dinner. The various Offices used to invite us to dine. At that time, they would say they need this and that. Then they would give us the money and the (purchase) order. One day they told me they needed tires. The brands we knew at that time were Dunlop and Firestone. That's all they had in India. So they, it seems, were asking for Michelin and Perelli. I said I never heard of them (laughter). They insisted that they existed. So they ordered a lot of things from various people. So therefore, those who knew them were all scared when the Chinese said that they were going to start a school for government workers. The majority were not told anything and so they just stayed like that. If the Chinese got the [Tibetan] leaders to do something, then the rest will follow, right? The majority don't know anyway. The traders were too preoccupied with money and they knew nothing about communism. They just did trading, going to India and bringing things up. They were preoccupied with that. Earlier you said something about them saying that there is no use in keeping items in one's house. They asked us to sell all the unnecessary things and so I made a list. No. Did they come to the house? Yes. But what for? To get the items? Yes, but did they need your things. They were not saying anything. They were probably thinking of cleaning up the house. They said that one's mind get attached to the house and so if the items were bought up then the house will be empty and so one would not be attached to the home. Maybe that was the idea, I don't know. I think there was some policy behind it. Anyway, were they saying that they want items from our house? They said if you want to sell then we will buy it and so please give us a list. So I took the opportunity and made the list. I had a huge radio that was bigger that these two [cupboard] [5ft by 4 ft approx]. It had 15-inch loud speakers and it had a huge radio in the middle with an amplifier. In those days it was all valves [as opposed to transistorized]. Then bicycles, motorcycles and all sorts of odds and ends, tables. They took all of it. They did not even bargain much. They gave me more that 5 lakhs of Rupees in checks and said to trade with it. So I traded with it and brought items up [from India]. Anyway, we had so many things left in the house like saddles, etc. Then there was also a lot of fear since they were planning to put us up there. Planning on making us sleep there [in the cadre's school]. They were thinking of destroying [the kudrak]. Then there was a lot of talk about what they had done in the eastern areas about doing something against religion and monasteries. And that so and so got killed and that such things were said in the newspapers. Unable to quite make out why the Chinese wanted to buy the items I asked my father again. They bought the items on 10-21-56 and 4 separate checks were issued of 144,000 Rs each. He said he feels that there was some policy at that time since they did not ask for specific items. Neither did they require these items since it had already been 5 years since they came to Tibet and had plenty of time to get their own. They did not bargain much and took whatever he put out. Later on they told him he can trade with the money and so my father bought various items with that money. They never asked for specific items and quantities, but bought anything. So there was all this talks and there was fear for everyone. Then they said that the Dalai Lama must go to China and people opposed this. So in 1954 were you in Lhasa? Yes, I was. So was there talk that the Dalai Lama should not go down. Yes. It was in the summer of 1954. I think it was in the 7th month. When the Dalai Lama went into the boat all the people went and they wept. There was this women called Asula, who got around. She did some trading here and there. It is said that she started crying and said that she was going to jump in the river and started running on the banks of the Tsangpo. Somebody said, "Okay jump, let me see you jump" and then they said that she didn't have the guts. So this was like a joke said in jest. Anyway, they burned incense and the Dalai Lama left. During this time did you have to go for the farewell meeting [tib. phebs skyel]. Yes. Everyone had to go. Where? Norbulinga? Yes, from Norbulinga since it was summer. What was the mood in Lhasa? The mood was such that it was said that it is not alright for the Dalai Lama to go. At that time one heard things like people were taken here and then they disappeared. That people were disappearing. That this monastery does not have a lama because he was invited and then he disappeared. So this was very strong in people's minds. By 1954? Yes by 1954. It seems that such things did happen in the eastern areas. By then they had already taken the guns in the Kham area so the problems started. Then the Dalai Lama went down for the 10th October 1954 and returned in 1955, in March I think. I was in Lhasa at that time and the government was not talking about the hydroelectric station at all. Surkhang Khenjung and I were told that we had to go for the second denshu for the Dalai Lama at Chamdo. So the two of us left. The Dalai Lama did not come and at Chamdo we just hung around. We stayed in Chamdo monastery for about 10 days and just walked and hung around, listening to the radio, etc. Wireless I think. At that time the phone must be working too. And they must have called here. So from Gangtok they must have called here [Bhutan House, Kalimpong, where my aunt lived]. The message reached very nicely. Then we arrived here. I think that may be enough.
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Chicago citation style:

Paljor Tsarong, Melvyn Goldstein, and Dündül Namgyal Tib. Tsha Rong Rim Bzhi Tsarong Rimshi. Interview H: with Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal,, India, 1991. Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, 1991. Pdf. https://www.loc.gov/item/tohap.H0043/.

APA citation style:

Paljor Tsarong, Goldstein, M. & Tsarong Rimshi, D. N. T. T. R. R. B. (1991) Interview H: with Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal,, India, 1991. Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio. [Pdf] Retrieved from the Library of Congress, https://www.loc.gov/item/tohap.H0043/.

MLA citation style:

Paljor Tsarong, Melvyn Goldstein, and Dündül Namgyal Tib. Tsha Rong Rim Bzhi Tsarong Rimshi. Interview H: with Tsarong Rimshi, Dündül Namgyal tib. tsha rong rim bzhi, bdud 'dul rnam rgyal,, India, 1991. Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, 1991. Pdf. Retrieved from the Library of Congress, <www.loc.gov/item/tohap.H0043/>.